Talk:Draft TRC Gimmick Rallye Rules

Open Issues

Choice of finish location

We should state (for RMs), the criteria for selecting a finish location. It wouldn't have to be in the Rallye Rules. It could be in the Advice for New Rallyemasters instead, but I thought it would be more likely to be noticed by repeating RMs here. There may already be such a list somewhere, but I didn't find it. (Darin may have discussed this in E-mail from August, 2006; Google found it, but I didn't find it in the trc-business archive.)

These are the rules I think we agree on:

• The management must tolerate us staying up to 2 hours total. (Some rallyists will arrive well before the rallye's stated finish time.)
• The establishment must not close prior to 1.5 hours after the stated rallye finish time. (Some rallyists may remain more than an hour after the stated finish time, and occasionally a rallye's finish time is extended.)
• There should not be waiters/waitresses. People like tipping, and since we'll stay a long time, that would reduce tips significantly (compared to use of the table by normal eat-and-run diners).
• There should be an opportunity for food, as well as drinks.
• There should be a place we can gather for awards, and room for scoring, the results whiteboard, evaluation and protest forms, etc.
• Our announcements must be tolerated by the management.

Additional rules I propose we also agree on:

• There should not be loud music (live or recorded) or TV audio. Can they adjust it for us?
• There should be adequate light to read the critique.

Assets:

• A variety of food types (pizza, sandwiches, salads) are a plus.
• Obviously, cheaper or better food are advantages, but these can be contradictory goals.
• A discount for rallyists can sometimes be arranged. If so, mention it in rallye materials (e.g., at the end of the final traverse).
• Availability of beer and wine is appreciated by some.
• Availability of ice cream (or other desserts) is a plus.
• Enough tables (or a separate room or area) where the club can eat nearby one another.
• Something (e.g., video games) to occupy bored kids.
• Short traverse from end of rallye, since some rallyists may be running low on time.
• If we can turn off (or at least down) TVs or recorded music during our announcements, that would sure help rallyists hear.

Also, if the location is off the beaten path, print (e.g., at the bottom of the critique) instructions to return to a freeway or "main drag" (well known road).
-- Dean 15:09, 8 September 2008 (PDT), updated Dean 15:58, 10 April 2012 (PDT)

flyer info

The rules require flyers in time for the quarterly mailing, but don't specify in which months we should send these mailings. (They always come as a surprise to me, and RMs rarely have their flyer ready.) Let's document when the mailings should be, and appoint someone reliable to nag the RMs for flyers. We should be able to print two flyers together, front and back on one sheet, but only if they are done in time, which is rare.
-- Dean 18:30, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Do we really need to list all 6 classes? Is it sufficient to mention "first timer through master expert"?

How specific must the "type of event" be? Is "multi-style gimmick rallye" enough detail? Or do I need to start saying A-B/CM or A-B/Q-A or A-B/CM/QA or ...? While all my new rallyes are going to be A-B, they are probably going to be multi-style rather than pure A-B. But I won't be sure until well after my flyer is due.
-- Darin McGrew 20:57, 21 July 2008 (PDT)

Listing all classes is probably a holdover from the days of lots of clubs and big differences in how they are run. Classes with equipment restrictions is much more necessary with timed rallyes.

I think "multi-style" is good enough, if that's all that's known, but there are people who won't run certain types.
-- Bill Jonesi

posting scores at finish

When TBs like "How far off from perfect will the top score be?" are used, displaying scores before the finish closes can give an advantage to cars that finish later. Do we care?
-- Darin McGrew 21:31, 21 July 2008 (PDT)

I came up with it about 15 years ago, and nobody ever brought that up before! Most cars that are running late usually forget to even fill in the bottom of their score sheet.
-- Bill Jonesi

protests?

Do we want any "guiding principles" for deciding protests, such as "win on the route, not in the protest committee" or the difference between alternate interpretations and broken gimmicks?
-- Darin McGrew 21:55, 21 July 2008 (PDT)

I've always hated that comment. If that's the voice or the club or protest committee, it implies they are already prejudice against the protest!
-- Bill Jonesi

after event, finances

What does the club secretary do with the score sheets? Should the contact DB be updated first? And by whom?

Do we really need to withhold reimbursement from the RM to get them to take down signs?

Are we still doing profit sharing? If someone wants profit sharing, then its approval should be as described in the bylaws or operating procedures for normal votes, or special meetings if done after the business meeting just prior to the rallye.
-- Darin McGrew 22:09, 21 July 2008 (PDT)

1. This dates back to when Mark Robichek was Secretary and kept the club database/mailing list.

2. There was a time when we did.

3. I would like to see the current wording remain. It makes Toy Rallye easier. My Feb Frolic was probably the last time it was really used, but if Pete, Stu or Jeff want to do a multi club event, you don't have to rechange the rules.
-- Bill Jonesi

I don't see how the draft wording makes Toy Rallye, co-sponsored events, or profit sharing any harder. When we put the event on the calendar, we're going to know that another club is involved, or that the rallyemaster wants profit sharing. We can approve the financial arrangements then. Or if not, we can call a special board meeting or otherwise approve alternative financial arrangements.
-- Darin McGrew 08:43, 7 August 2008 (PDT)

Nine days is a long time for removal of markers. I'd like to add "Preferably within 24 hours of the end of the rallye." Given that many municipalities in the area have sign posting ordinances.
-- Nick Stefanisko

My guess would be that the 9-day limit is intended to let the RM take down the CMs the weekend after the rallye (Friday of the first weekend, until Sunday of the second weekend). But it's something we inherited from an older version of the document, and I don't think we've discussed it recently. I'll post to trc-rm and trc-business to solicit feedback.
-- Darin McGrew 21:40, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Mixing advice into rules

It bothers me that there are suggestions mixed in with the rules. Most (all?) are identifiable by such words as "may," "possibly," and "should preferably". Maybe typographical difference (smaller font?) would make them less annoying. I bet I'm the only one bothered, in which case I'll just live with it.
-- Dean 12:15, 23 July 2008 (PDT)

I think it's okay to mix hard rules with semi-optional recommendations, as long as they are kept distinct. In a couple places, I tried to separate the "should" items into a separate list from the "must" items.
-- Darin McGrew 12:56, 23 July 2008 (PDT)

support tasks for rallyists competing in rallye

While thinking of inviting more rallyemaster and workers, it occurred to me that the CMs should be erected by someone not competing in the rallye (as rallyists shouldn't know where the CMs are). A rule should say so, no?
--Dean 14:04, 23 July 2008 (PDT)

On a related topic, do we need a policy about the registration workers running the rallye? For example, the EDTC guys were surprised when they started asking questions of the registration workers, only to be told that they couldn't answer the questions and were actually competing in the rallye themselves. Also, rallyemasters should send electronic copies to the registration workers in advance, assuming the registration workers are competing in the rallye. And Michelle needs an electronic copy.
-- Darin McGrew 15:57, 23 July 2008 (PDT)

Generally only Rallyemaster/rallye chairman/Asst Rallyemaster should be putting up CMs, but if an expert comes back to the start and tells you there's no CM past the misspelled RI 3, and offers to put another up, you don't want to prohibit it.
-- Bill Jonesi

rationales

In email, Steve suggested that we include rationales for the rules, rather than just stating the rules. I think this is a great idea, but I don't have time to add rationales right now.
-- Darin McGrew 18:30, 6 August 2008 (PDT)

Resolved Issues

formatting?

I'd like to convert the structure to use wikitext headings. Any objections?
-- Darin McGrew 15:11, 21 July 2008 (PDT)

Won't more Wiki formatting make it more difficult to finalize (in the non-wiki portion of the web site) when we've settled on the rules and the board approves?

--Dean 16:44, 21 July 2008 (PDT)

I suppose, unless we leave it in the wiki and just lock down write access.
-- Darin McGrew 18:15, 21 July 2008 (PDT)

minor details

We should we be consistent in the use of "email" vs "e-mail". Is there a reason why one instance was changed to "e-mail" but the rest were left as "email"?

Ditto for "scoresheet" vs "score sheet", except that it looks like one "scoresheet" was missed when you converted to "score sheet". (BTW, I prefer "score sheet" myself...)

Is "1 percent of possible score per minute" the best limit? Or is "points for 1 gimmick per minute" better?
-- Darin McGrew 12:42, 23 July 2008 (PDT)

Feel free to make e-mail consistent (any which way) and "score sheet".
--Dean 14:04, 23 July 2008 (PDT)

I've made "email" and "score sheet" consistent. I also updated the late penalty maximum.
-- Darin McGrew 10:45, 24 July 2008 (PDT)

approval/amendment date?

Have these rules ever been approved/amended as a separate document? Does it make sense to list the approval/amendment dates of the past versions of the Operating Procedures as the approval/amendment dates for the Gimmick Rallye Rules? Should we just list the approval date for the new Gimmick Rallye Rules? Should we mention that the rules were originally part of the Operating Procedures, and possibly list the approval/amendment dates of the Operating Procedures?
-- Darin McGrew 20:34, 21 July 2008 (PDT)

notifying restaurant

This doesn't seem to belong in the Prechecks section, but I can't think of a better place.
-- Darin McGrew 21:16, 21 July 2008 (PDT)

It's more of a mentor/comp director thing, but on a lot of prechecks at the end, you're there.
-- Bill Jonesi

Covering letters?

After saying that public signs should not be defaced is the odd sentence If lettering is covered. Tape must be removed immediately after the event. If we aren't defacing government signs, what can that mean?
-- Dean 12:15, 23 July 2008 (PDT)

Yeah, that's rather odd. Maybe the idea was that it's okay to apply tape to signs that are not "guiding or informing motorists at large", although I can't think of any examples. I think it's probably best to prohibit altering or defacing signs, with a possible exception for the unlikely case of signs altered with permission from whoever erected them.
-- Darin McGrew 12:47, 23 July 2008 (PDT)

Protest outcomes

Couldn't a protest committee decide a rule should apply for experts and MEs? The rules specify one car, one class, or everyone. I suggest relaxing this to "certain class(es)" or something better.

Any change affecting all cars, other than the discarding of a portion of the rallye, shall be made known before protests close (to allow for counter-protests). I salute the goal, but don't think it is practical for the protest committee to decide such a thing before protests close. I suggest maybe we have a special counter-protest process.
-- Dean 12:15, 23 July 2008 (PDT)

I agree. Allowing protests to be granted for "certain class(es)" is cleaner than "one class". Although in practice, protests tend to be granted for everyone or just for the team filing the protest.

And yeah, the protest/counter-protest loop sounds painful. Although thinking about it, most protests aren't actually granted for all cars. Instead, they are granted for "all cars with (such and such) recorded on their score sheet". We should address this, preferably with someone who was around when the original rules were written.
-- Darin McGrew 12:53, 23 July 2008 (PDT)

I've updated the language for protests affecting specific class(es). The protest/counter-protest loop is still an issue.
-- Darin McGrew 12:16, 24 July 2008 (PDT)

"someone who was around when the original rules were written" That would be me. Some of it was a compromise with other clubs in NCSCC Variety Committee. Although it said "one class", I know there were times that a couple of classes were changed. Example: An expert bandit, that the rallyemaster misspoke at the school, sending most FT & Beginners to it. Protest committee removes penalty from those classes, nobody complains it not per rules. It's a reasonable change.
-- Bill Jonesi